My Lowly Opinion

[TheNeek]

That brown E21 is so played out.

[M.Burroughs]

No matter how this forum & community grows or changes I will always come here. Nothing else offers such a wide selection of featured cars, build threads and useful info while still focusing on the community aspect. I spend time everyday to make sure I am up to date with my favourite builds or just seeing what's new.

All of this is why I first joined and why I love SW.

Thanks Alexander. This post means the world to me (and I am sure the same goes for Andrew and Ben). It's what we've been after since day one. Your support makes it worth it.

[Alexander]

No matter how this forum & community grows or changes I will always come here. Nothing else offers such a wide selection of featured cars, build threads and useful info while still focusing on the community aspect. I spend time everyday to make sure I am up to date with my favourite builds or just seeing what's new.

All of this is why I first joined and why I love SW.

[skrapez]

I personally don't understand the up-rise about the lambo. lol

[Rally]

I'm newer, spend most of my time in RT and lurk the rest of the forum. "Shifted" would absolutely be the word to use. Maybe you guys don't see it that way, but you went from cars built in a garage to talking up shipping a Lambo to shoot a feature on HRE wheels. None of that displays "broadened".

You guys have to understand that you are moving from a time when the big threads were things like the cross-country trip (I know I've read that thread multiple times) and threads about Rusty and other "regulars" to cars that no longer even seem like they belong

I guess where I'm confused is that within the last 2-3 pages we have Nic Foster's e21, Austin's y33, and the Australian 2002 (and the list goes on and on as you look back through the pages).All of those cars are garage built cars built by long term members of this forum. Nic's e21 DEFINES garage built. He, his wife, and his father built that thing from the ground up in the comfort of his own garage. I ask that you have a look through our recent articles before judging the blog based on only 2 articles.

In about 2 hours, when the sun starts setting, Mike I and will be heading out to shoot another garage built mk4...and there is an never ending list of member built cars on our to-shoot list. That hasn't (and never will) changed

Just an example, here are the cars that we've covered in the past 5 pages. I think you'll find that nearly all of them are member-built, reasonable builds. Do they have a lot of blood and sweat put into them or a lot of time invested in them? Absolutely, but that's what makes them special. That's what makes them worthy of the spotlight. At the end of the day, they are still built by the members of this community and they are still built with the same passion that we all share.

There's only one unachievable car in the bunch, and that's the lambo that everyone seems so focused on. Take a step back and look at the other content we've posted over the past 2 months:

[jdel]

I think "broadened" rather than "shifted" would be more appropriate.

I'm newer, spend most of my time in RT and lurk the rest of the forum. "Shifted" would absolutely be the word to use. Maybe you guys don't see it that way, but you went from cars built in a garage to talking up shipping a Lambo to shoot a feature on HRE wheels. None of that displays "broadened".

You guys have to understand that you are moving from a time when the big threads were things like the cross-country trip (I know I've read that thread multiple times) and threads about Rusty and other "regulars" to cars that no longer even seem like they belong. It just seems like the focus is on different things now. All those other sites that have been mentioned have no problem throwing cookie cutter builds and bought vehicles on the front page. What has always made this site different and one of the reasons why after all the shit I get for even considering this to be one of my favorite sites are the things you considered to be worthy of a feature. Anyone (with money) can take HRE wheels, put them on a Lambo and call it a day. You guys have always seemed to be above that kind of situation, and now it seems like there is a shift because that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Rally]

The point that I was trying to get across was simply that things are very different, people who were once considered great friends of mine don't come across that way anymore. Also that, maybe selling out is the wrong way to put it, but that it feels like they have forgotten who the target audience really is, or perhaps their targets have shifted.

I think "broadened" rather than "shifted" would be more appropriate. We still care about you guys and all the SW friendships we have forged in the past year. That will never change.

You have to realize that this past year was a busy and jam-packed year for us. Ben, Mike, and I packed up all of our things, said good bye to our close friends from home, said good bye to our families, and moved out to California to centralize StanceWorks in the center of the aftermarket automotive industry. Ever since that move, we've been working non-stop to bring you guys this content, hold these events, and provide the products that people are requesting from us.

Does it mean I don't get to see my friends as often as I'd like? Does it mean that I don't spend as much time with my family? Has it cut into my ability to to take spontaneous road trips? Has it taken away from my time on the forums? Absolutely, but I make those sacrifices because I love StanceWorks and I love the people that make up StanceWorks. While I might not see everyone as much as I'd like, when I get to shoot the shit with people like Olek at h2o, or I arrive at SoWo to see the SW crew hanging out....it's like a family and that makes it all worth while. That first year was a growing year and it took a lot of dedication to get everything set up and get it running. This year we will be making our rounds to various events and we hope that we can see you and all of our other friends out there. We'll sit down, grab some drinks, and resume car discussions as if we had never split ways. That is the special SW connection and that will never go away.

[SeanDub]

I voiced my personal opinion on how I felt things were going, Mike came back and posted his point of view on the entire "situation". We obviously have some personal issues to iron out so I’ll save my words for when we can speak personally or on the phone.

Olek, you're right they are letting us do something and haven’t asked for a penny which is awesome and we definitely do appreciate it, and maybe because of that my response was out of line.

The point that I was trying to get across was simply that things are very different, people who were once considered great friends of mine don't come across that way anymore. Also that, maybe selling out is the wrong way to put it, but that it feels like they have forgotten who the target audience really is, or perhaps their targets have shifted. I didn’t mean to insult anyone but more bring up a discussion. Because everyone is so invested in their work, some feathers were ruffled and I get it, its normal.

At the end of the day, it is what it is. SW has said they will try to be more involved and we understand their day to day more. Let’s cut the shit and go back to taking over the world.

[LuckyBoyOne3]

Seriously Paul? What has changed so drastically? I think you’re letting your opinions be formed by other people who aren’t happy with stanceworks for business reasons. I know your friends with the guy who organized Tailored. I know that show was not up to par for what people expected and I know there has been bad blood and shit talking ever since. Don’t let that lead you to making threads that attack these guys for selling out because it’s straight up horse shit...

I need to pull this apart... and I will address them in order of which they were presented.

I have addressed multiple times what I think is the issues at hand, maybe "selling out" isn't the term I should have chosen to use since denying vendors sponsorship seems to be the main argument. Maybe if people did not center their arguments and focus on that single point, they would see there is much more to read in the initial thread. Secondly my opinion has nothing to do with Tailored, which until now wasn't mentioned. The guys that put on Tailored have no bad blood, and have never said a single ill word toward or about S|W... they love these guys have had nothing but positive things to say about S|W and would like to work with S|W in the future. And who is to say the show wasn't up to par? Were you there? Every time I go to a meet, show, or gtg I am asked if we are doing Tailored again, and there is always disappointment when the answer is no. I had an amazing time, as did everyone I have talked to afterwards. I am the one that was disappointed in S|W participation in the show, but that is a conversation for another time. And your final point is ridiculous, this in no way an attack one person or group of people this is something that has been on the words of the community, so I chose to address it on a public forum, for public debate.

[Dubmd]

I know you guys have never met me, but I did go to SOWO last year and introduced myself to Jeremy's friend, Dubmd (who shrugged me off ) and some pretentious volvo kid.

haha sorry man, im usually a really nice guy!
i **** to say that i was probably drunk, but i was that whole trip.
next time ill say hey!

[Rally]

I feel that just like this entire thread, the focus has shifted. I could go on and on about how I don't feel leather driving gloves, Lambo's, HRE's, and other exotic overpriced things do not belong on a site that I thought is about builders, but it seems I will continue to get the same results... I was warned it would happen if I made my opinion public, and it was nothing short of reality.

In an effort to shift this discussion back to your initial topic at hand and discuss the things that seem to upset you so that we are able to give them careful consideration, can you elaborate on why offering driving gloves, posting ONE article about a lambo, and adding another wheel company to our site is enough to label us as sell-outs?

You mention that you don't feel that these things line up with the builder mentality of the past years. This is where I think we might be misunderstanding each other as I have a hard time seeing the disconnect.

The leather driving gloves- Builders work hard to pour their sweat and tears into their build. They take pride in their vehicles. One day after countless sleepless nights spent tinkering in the garage that car will be ready to hit the roads. When I developed the idea of offering driving gloves, it was with the intention of allowing that driver to add one additional pleasure to their driving experience in the car they love. They've worked so hard to build that car, why not toss on a pair of driving gloves and feel like the king of the road while they hit the twisty mountain roads or cruise down the strip? Where is the problem with the mentality of enjoying driving the car you built? Surely $150 isn't THAT expensive when people are spending $2k to refurbish and widen BBS RSs or dropping enough cash to re-paint their cars. Besides, it's one simple product. That seems like such a trivial thing to judge an entire company or community on.

The ONE Lambo post - I can barely keep track of how many articles have gone up in the past year and as we grow we're putting up even more content. What I don't understand is how one article is enough to bring you to this point of frustration. I understand that none of us could ever afford the lambo (it's not like it's OUR lambo)....but don't we all appreciate Lambos as car lovers despite our ability to afford them? I personally love the work and engineering behind Lamborghinis. Conservatively it's safe to say that we've made around 100 posts this year. ONE of those 100+ articles was about a Lambo and your words make it seem as if everything we've posted has been lambos and exotics. We're still posting low BMWs, VIP cars, and JDM cars. I struggle to see any massive change in our content outside of the ONE lambo that we posted. Could you explain why this one article has had such an overarching effect on your opinions?

HRE- With a premium product comes a premium price point. While many of us (myself included) can't afford HREs at this time in our lives, this doesn't mean that NONE of us can afford HREs. You have to realize that while the majority here on SW may not be in that budget bracket, we do have a number of members who read our blog and who watch our forums that CAN afford those wheels. Here at StanceWorks we cater to ALL of our followers. From the rich luxury car drivers to the college students. From the Kia owner to the Lambo enthusiast. That is what StanceWorks is about. We are about bringing together the ENTIRE car community through a shared passion for wheel fitment and low cars. While we do have HRE here selling premium priced wheels, we also have companies like Rotiform, VIP Modular, and Apt 9. From used 3 piece wheels at discount prices, to affordable cast wheels and premium priced forged modular wheels, our wheel sponsors cover the ENTIRE gamut of wheel pricing....but they share one important thing in common and that's quality. We bring companies on who offer quality parts for our users and we aim to include sponsors for all levels of owners and enthusiasts. I see no problem in adding a premium wheel company to our list of supporters. Could you elaborate on the issues that you see with the relationship?

I look forward to hearing your input on these three subjects that you have brought up. We sincerely care about your input, but we're trying to gather a solid understanding of your issues beyond simply knowing the topics that upset you. In order for us to understand where you're coming from, it's important to determine why you feel the way you do. From there we can considering your words and experiences in our future decisions.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Jedidiah]

Personally, I think the solution is very simple: spend a little more time connecting with the community instead of always advancing it. Perhaps there should be a thread to correspond to every blog entry. That way the S|W team can share a little more about the motivation and experiences that go with each blog post and the community can interact, instead of just being impressed.

Ben,

Really appreciate your constructive criticism. It's well received and we will do our best to implement this suggestion. We definitely want you guys to have a full perspective to our motivations, intentions and the work that really goes on behind the scenes to make the things we do happen. Your suggestion is a great way to go about it.

I also really appreciate your understanding and giving us the benefit of the doubt through our efforts. Says a lot.

Ben

[Jlyons617]

OP, good article. I think this happens with all groups, maybe it's just an evolution. I think it just has happened so fast it's like a culture shock. I wish I was around earlier to see the early progression of the Stanceworks trend. I think right now Mike is at a crossroads, how to stay true to the original ideals while progressing to keep things fresh. It's funny though the progression curve of Stanceworks seems to be bery close to the progression of electronic music.

[525iT_Feen]

I toyed with not responding to this just because it first seemed like forum drama but then I started hearing through the grape vine that people were talking shit about other individuals specifically. I’m going to start from the foundation of this post. I’m of the opinion that “friends” should pick up the phone and call if they have an issue with something that’s going on within what they consider “their” community. Starting a thread bashing the entire group of people who founded this site (with the exception of Nic whom I think a lot of you don’t even realize is the founder) and then saying “I’m not trying to be rude” or “I don’t mean this in a negative way” is just asking for attention and opening the door to an argument that you guys so clearly want to have everyone involved in.

Selling out, to me, means drastically changing the way you do things in order to gain more profit and fame in tern negatively affecting your reputation with supporters that you have had since day one. With that said the same people that have been talking shit and complaining recently (I’m just being honest since we all claim we are and I will get to specifics)about selling out to HRE, VIP Modular, getting more involved with exotic cars, getting “fancy” are the ones who were SCREAMING “Don’t do this if you can’t afford it” – “don’t buy fake splits” – “Fuck your clapped out shit box”, and literally running people off of this website when it firs started. It’s called raising the fucking bar. The community hasn’t gone anywhere it’s just changing like it has done time and time again. In a time where anyone can start a blog and start featuring cars left and right Ben, Andrew, and Mike have tried to separate themselves from the norm and do something different and now everyone wants to bitch and moan.

I don’t care about being an OG or this or that. I got dragged into this “scene” by an older crowd of people who aren’t even on forums anymore (or never were) with a few exceptions and have been into good fitment and the European car scene since I was 6 years old in Warsaw drooling over dumped e34s. Those people paved the way for sites like stanceworks. Good fitment is nothing new neither is modifying cars. I ended up on stanceworks because I liked what I saw. I had been buddies with Mike for a while through bimmerforums but him, his e28, and whatever new thing he had going on wasn’t what brought me here – the potential of an intriguing and different website was. After a few years of being here I can honestly say my expectations of what the SW gang was bringing to the table were exceeded. I find the articles interesting, I like the variety, I like the new products being brought to the table, and I like coming to a website that doesn’t look like all the other sites I frequent and I really enjoy seeing friends whom I met through SW.

When is it too far? I struggle to continue to support an organization that has, in my opinion, simply lost sight of its origins. This organization was founded on builders, crafters, creators... you might even say visioneers. A bit on the younger side most modify cars with with a combination of what we have, what we can salvage for cheap or free, and the tools we have at our disposal to work with. It sparked a sense of ingenuity, creativeness, and gusto the automotive industry had not seen in years. Scavenging through every source available from local classifieds to wrecking yards, buying totaled vehicles and parting them out after retrieving the single rare part they needed to perfect their vision. Searching high and low and often times selling everything they had of value in order to purchase, modify, and perfect the vintage uber rare wheels they had searched for over the past year.

Seriously Paul? What has changed so drastically? I think you’re letting your opinions be formed by other people who aren’t happy with stanceworks for business reasons. I know your friends with the guy who organized Tailored. I know that show was not up to par for what people expected and I know there has been bad blood and shit talking ever since. Don’t let that lead you to making threads that attack these guys for selling out because it’s straight up horse shit. If you don’t like some of what is being put on the main page scroll over it. If you feel the people that run this site are fading off and selling out then you are clearly not seeing what I’m seeing. I’m about 99% sure if the guys wanted to sell out they would have done so by allowing the hundreds of vendors that want to PAY to advertise here do so and have sold off their share of the site by now. On top of that they wouldn’t be going out of there way, making phone calls, and TRYING to work with Broadway Static AFTER creating a market for $1700 e36 coilovers on their own. Lets be fucking real here I’m so sick of the bickering and bitching. We’re all either friends are going to support one another with our projects, companies, personal BS or we’re not going to be friends and if that’s the case then move on. After reading all this shit it doesn’t seem like anyone wants to fix anything but a few people just want to talk shit.

Sean, we’ve been through our fair share of shit man but I feel like I can keep it on the up and up with you. You are representing a company now. This same company is being allowed to advertise here after Jaze and the SW group made an agreement to work together. You know the deal with that so I won’t say anymore. I know you have your reasons to feel the way you do but you of all people should pick up the phone call and call Mike. Bickering and jumping on the bandwagon with Paul and the rest of the PNW guys that have this problem really doesn’t make sense. You’ve been here from day one. You know how much work has been put in and it’s unfair to say they are selling out. Are the on the forums as much anymore? No. Are they road tripping every month and coming all over the place to party and hang out? No. Are they selling out? No.

Pavel, You gotta get over this whole “Mike doesn’t build his own shit” thing and move on. You’ve made your point time and time again and me and you have talked about this over and over again. I know you well enough to know that your gonna keep talking shit if your getting a rise out of everyone but comparing Elvis to this shit is a joke man. Be real – I know he’s your boy but the guy couldn’t even come up with a different name so lets not fuck around SN is unoriginal. He might be doing his thing and have a following but its just a blog. Just like Canibeat, Just like Fat Lace, just like all the others. If you guys don’t like SW promoting different things then what you can find on all those other sites then so be it – MOVE ON. Your family my man you know that so I’m sure your not taking it personal but other people are beginning to so I’m asking you to just cut the shit.

Lastly, lets look at getting back to our “roots”. Just like Paul said the root of all of this is piecing together your own definition of a cool car with what you have. Along with that comes a group of friends to do it with. Its up to you to keep it going. I have plenty of friends spread across this country that I can call on a favor or for advice whenever I need – that has not changed. The ATL crew was just all gathered up from all over in Russ’s garage for a weekend. Byron keeps the entire NE SW in touch and when we all catch up its like no time went by. I can go by Skrapez house pretty much on zero notice and the doors will be open to hanging out and shooting the shit. I don’t see how any of that has changed. At the end of the day I don’t give a shit about any of this. The only reason I took time to respond is because this shit is starting to get personal for people. If you’re not happy sever your ties and go do your own thing. If you REALLY want to fix something pick up the phone and make shit happen. You guys can nit pick all through what I just wrote. I won’t be coming back to respond. Take it with a grain of salt if you want to. Get up from behind your keyboard and find better shit to worry about then a fucking website that is supposed to be here for personal pleasure not crying and complaining.

[skrapez]

The problem here is it was obviously a completely different situation when this website was first started. When SW started off (i personally was not here yet) but it was a small group of friends that wanted a place all their own to share their style of modification without being thrashed by "elitists" from their make of car. As time went in this site and community has grown to something no one could have ever expected. I have a lot of respect for the people that started all of this and made it into what it is today and keep it running. I cannot even imagine the amount of work that goes into all of this. Like you said, between the site, running shows, making new friends and family life it is a lot to have on one plate. I do agree that the best times ive ever had is hanging out in parking lots just talking about cars for hours on end. As things grow they do change, but I feel the base of which this site and community started off as is still there.