Automobile Enthusiasm: What's it mean to you?

[WhiteStripes]

This could be an interesting thread. I hope everyone tries to take it in the positive manner I intend for it to be taken. TL;DR at the end. To clarify some things, this isn't a "Me defending rep wheels" thread, it's a "Let's all be positive and not turn into BF.c" thread.

So I just read all the bickering in the Slammed e46 Sedan thread and I gotta say that it was kinda disturbing to see that kind of stuff happen on SW. I mean I completely understand that kind of stuff happens, no forum is immune to it, but I thought we were all kind of above that.

I think the thing that people don't understand when it comes to Racelands or KW V3's on a car or Rotas or CCWs is that it's the intent behind the mod that should matter most. Sure it's refreshing to see a super nice set of brushed botique wheels on a car sitting low on high end coils or a baller air system, but this is reality and not everyone is capable of affording those things.

We're a group of like minded individuals and we're all interested in achieving a general look for our cars. IMO and what I believe is people are going to buy for their car what brings them the most joy without detracting from other realms of life within reason. A set of BBS LM's may break the bank or pull funds from say rent money but a set of reps is completely affordable. As long as that person doesn't parade the reps around as the real thing, I don't see what the big deal is. Same for Racelands or Nex coilovers. The person still puts in the blood, sweat and tears into dialing in the fitment, and possibly even more painstakingly so because they don't have as many adjustable parameters due to their budget performance. If a person achieves the same look with low cost parts then props to them.

I understand that some people are brand whores, I'm guilty myself, and they like to see that kind of thing on their cars, but there was a good thread a while back where this guy put a ton of expensive parts on his car and everyone still said it looked like crap. It was an e60 I believe. The point here is that it's the end result we desire more than the steps that actually get us there. Also, there's a ton of hypocrisy when it comes to this as well, but I won't go into that.

Lastly, a huuuuge aspect of being a gear head is the community. It's no fun building the coolest car in the world if you've got no one to share it with. The community is where we get the know how, the inspiration, the feedback for what we are doing to our rides. Now I agree that everyone should mod their car to their desires and not just build a car for other people to like it, but there's definitely going to be some emotions involved when someone hates on your hard work because you've got some $300 coilovers. I **** to say it, but if you're rolling on 5k wheels and telling a guy his car isn't nice because he's only got Style 5's, you sound like a dick. If you're saying you don't care for Style 5's and you think they detract from the car and that a better wheel choice could have probably been made, then that's better (If you suggest RSs though you're not getting the point haha).


I'll end this post with what I think being an Auto Enthusiast is all about. This video which I'm sure a lot of you have seen embodies a ton of the aspects of it.

http://www.vimeo.com/14223120 Risky Devils, extended cut.

For me, being an auto enthusiast is being able to appreciate the time, money, effort, and thought people put into their rides whether the vehicle is my cup of tea or not.

Ugh, sorry this was so long, I guess I just ended up getting on a roll.

TL;DR
Take into consideration all the aspects of a person's situation and just be a little more open minded before you start talking shit. Negativity breeds negativity, and I know we all want this place to stay positive. Take the time at least to watch that video, it's an awesome little flick regardless whether you care about anything I wrote here or not haha.

[MrJereMoose]

I think that we are open minded, but this sort of forum is sort of exclusive...
I mean there is a general feeling among the people here that you don't "cheap out" on a car.
It's what this forum was founded on.
We believe in modifying automobiles in a certain style, this stance style. Can we appreciate all types of cars, yes.
Negativity is bad, but everyone has their own opinion, or they follow a popular opinion that they like. That's the way it is.
I don't mean this in a mean way, but if "you" (rhetorical you) don't like the forum, go somewhere else. That was the foundation of this site. I used to spend all my time on bf.c, but then that forum got angry, and it was clear that the majority of the people on that forum thought differently than myself about certain things like style. Luckily M.Bfurroughs made this site, and all was good.

Honestly, I didn't read your whole post, so this rant if it doesn't make sense...

[Kielan]

I completely understand what you are saying about the reps, and cheap coilovers, etc. Automotive enthusiasm is what keeps the culture alive there is no doubt about that. But think of it this way, when people buy replica wheels, its not the fact that they bought the cheaper product, its the fact that they are supporting companies who are ripping off designs, of companies who put in untold amounts of time into R&D, testing, and sourcing the best quality materials for the wheel, and its the same for certain companies in regards to coilovers. The problem occurs when people (and this is more often the case than not), go out and buy replica wheels brand new for 1k, because they couldn't be bothered to take the time and look for the real deal used. It's that, that is hurting the enthusiast world. If someone is rolling on OEM wheels like style 5's, sawblades, etc, because they can't afford RS', Rotiforms, LM's, etc, I will respect the hell out of that car, because the guy is making an effort to do it right, and support the companies that in the end need our support, otherwise the awesome wheels, companies like Rota and XXR produce replicas of, wouldn't even be made. Which would bring an end to the modified car world.

The Automotive Enthusiast culture, no matter what "scene" they come from whether it be hot rodders, show cars, muscle car guys, purists, fitment guys, power guys, it doesn't matter, its all based on innovation, and creativity. The problem with replica companies is they don't offer anything in that regard. BBS, CCW, Rotiform, HRE, etc, are leading the way in bringing out new awesome wheel designs, and trying to advance the automotive culture as a whole.

There is nothing more disappointing though than to see a car with 20k+ in parts into it, only to be rolling on reps, because the owner couldn't be bothered to put in the time or the effort to find the real thing. It saddens me to see kids my age, just rushing out and buying replica wheels, and eBay coilovers, because they can't be bothered to save up, and spend the time researching because they "want stance now." Its that mentality thats destroying the culture.

However, when a car is put together on a budget with a few quality parts, and other OEM parts because it was a budget build, and then gets "***** on", because some people are extremely arrogant and think that just because they have all the money in the world to spend on their car, think that every other person should do the same as them, thats equally as bad. There is nothing wrong with rolling on OEM wheels because they were cheap, I would rather see that everyday than someone going out and buying replica's.

Just my view on the matter.

[MrJereMoose]

StanceWorks raises the bar by being lower and doper.

I know it is a bit pretentious.

[MrJereMoose]

Budget building is a particular style within this community, and should be respected. Doing it right is what it's all about, and that is a very figurative term as right means different things to different people, but the community as whole has opinions of what is right and what is not.

I don't like **** for no reason, and people do need to chill out some (not just here, everywhere...).

Also, it is a pay to play type of game, car modifying, it always has been. Time is also money, so yes a car that is not a big budget build can be amazing if the time and effort is put in. People work with what they have, and yes there is a learning curve as to what is appreciated on this site.

I would say that there needs to be more constructive criticism

[Kielan]

I think it needs to be said as well, that building with what you have is amazing, I love what can come of that, if time and passion is invested to a car, and that more people need to see that. It really really, can lead to something truly amazing (directs to rat rods).

[Okin]

For me, being an auto enthusiast is being able to appreciate the time, money, effort, and thought people put into their rides whether the vehicle is my cup of tea or not.

Take into consideration all the aspects of a person's situation and just be a little more open minded before you start talking shit. Negativity breeds negativity, and I know we all want this place to stay positive.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Take the time at least to watch that video, it's an awesome little flick regardless whether you care about anything I wrote here or not haha.

Uhmmm Video Linky No Werk.

[M.Burroughs]

I read the OP, but none of the responses so far, so forgive me if I'm repeating a few things here. This isn't directed at anyone personally.

I'm going to paint the broad picture without going too far into detail, so try to stay with me. Remember, everything is an example and should be able to be applied in a broader scope.


We'll start with BBS and the BBS LM. It's a great wheel, right? One of the few (or many?) that will always be remembered in the history of aftermarket wheels. It really is one of the "heavy hitters". It did a lot in terms of moving wheel design forward.

Perhaps you're unfamiliar with what goes in to making high-quality custom forged multi-piece wheels... so let me crack the door:

• Planning/Design
• Digital stress testing
• Engineering
• Creating a forging die
• Forging the wheel center
• CNCing the wheel centers
• Designing an inner/outer profile
• Wheel assembly
• Wheel hardware
• Product testing
• TUV/JWL approval
• Etc...

Keep in mind these wheels are all made to-order, custom to each client's request. These are masterfully crafted wheels, with great care taken to ensure not only an excellent wheel, but YOUR SAFETY as well.

It costs some serious money to produce high end wheels. I'm not suggesting that the $4-8k price tag on a lot of wheels is without a serious markup, but keep in mind they're not just parading around making $1900 on a $2000 wheel.

So, now we know what goes in to making a BBS LM for instance.

Along comes Rota who decides "Hey, let's make copies of that. It's successful, people want them, we can sell them for $100/wheel."

There are several schools of thought that should go through your mind... some really might not matter, but some absolutely must.

A:
These wheels are cast, not forged. This means they're weaker, heavier, and more brittle.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you. That's fair, we don't all need forged wheels. Cast does just fine.

B:
These wheels aren't tested in any way. You're putting not only yourself, but your passengers AND others on the road at risk.

Just because a design works as a forged center does not mean its structurally sound as a cast one-piece wheel. Some rep companies "test" their wheels, but take it with a grain of salt. Search "rota fail" to really see what kind of garbage you're buying.

C:
This is the big one. Don't bother calling yourself an "enthusiast" to me if you don't agree.

BBS came out with the design you love so much. If you can't afford it, that sucks for you.... but buying reps is NOT okay. That replica company STOLE the design. Yes, that's right, stole... as in theft, as in it's not fucking their's.

Show BBS some respect. Save those pennies and support the guys who bring the good stuff to the market. Remember, every dollar you give to Rota or any other rep bullshit company kills our wonderful aftermarket.

We've seen Greddy/Trust die off thanks to this SAME bullshit. If you think you're not hurting the market, you're dead wrong.

Don't give me the argument "Well, people who buy reps can't afford the real deal" or "the people who buy reps would never pay for the real deal anyway". Does that make it okay?
Fuck you, asshole. No, it doesn't.

Frankly, I don't care how you justify your purchases of rep wheels. It makes me sick. You and your greed to have the "flavor of the week wheels" is what is killing our market.

Sit there and remember, if BBS hadn't made the LM to begin with, you wouldn't have your shitty knockoff bullshit.

Save your pennies, send your money where it belongs, or find one of the millions of other cheap, non-knockoff wheels available. It's not a hard concept.

Trust me, I'd never knock wheels because of their price. I understand that part of it. I'd roll on $300 wheels too, no question there.

I'm knocking those of you who fail to see that by contributing to the knockoff industry, you truly are hurting the big brands. Don't think they don't need your money.

Trust me, if you continue to buy reps, we'll see the big guys... you know, those TRUE INNOVATORS, the ones who actually CREATE the designs you love so much... die off.

I could go on all day.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1219337

I made a thread saying the same thing on bimmerforums almost 2 years ago.
There may be a couple of other points in there, if you want to keep reading.

Either way, remember...
You've gotta pay to play.
If you can't afford it, purchasing stolen designs isn't okay.


I'll support any car that looks good, regardless of how much money is in it. $100, $100,000. It's all the same to me. But I won't support your knock-off supporting horse shit.

[WhiteStripes]

I didn't think of the Rep wheels hurting the original companies business.... somehow spaced that I suppose. It's a good point for sure. I'd love to see if there are any numbers out there on how well a particular original high end wheel sells after a rep version of it has been put out.

StanceWorks is a great community and I agree that it's definitely a niche style where pay to play is super prevalent, but the Budget Baller thread proves you can "cheap out" on a car and still have a nice ride. Look at how many of Burroughs' cars have had cut springs and no one has said anything about it, yet some guy who has an otherwise pretty damn nice looking car says he's on cut springs and then gets flamed out. It's that kind of thing that just makes me kind of go "Whaaaaat?"

And in no way am I telling people to not have an opinion, it'd just be cool if people could be supportive with it rather than degrading. Like I said, it's all in how you state things.

[Oxer]

Everything that needs to be said on the topic has been.

One thing I will throw into the mix though, A good friend once told me that to be a part of the community you need dedication. Anyone can go out and buy power modifications, but it takes a certain type of, crazy if you will, to roll your car as low as possible.

To add to that, to be a part of this community not a whole lot is needed. But for those of us that live and breath what has become our culture, we will still be here after the "fad" passes. In 20 years time, I will still be building cars to be as low as possible. its something I have always done and loved. When I was 14 and my mum(mom for you yanks) gave me her old car, I knew nothing of suspension, But I still have pics of it with 200kg of cement in the boot and a full car load of guys in it.

From there I have come a long way and worked with some of the most talented people in the industry. I dont look to the internet for inspiration, My ideas bounced off of life long friends is all the inspiration I need to create what I intend on.








Finally, Real low > Lip low, Real > Reps, Jason > Ben.





Edit: I just re-read this post, Night shift has gotten the better of me once again, this post has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I wont delete it either.

Enjoy the rambling, my forecast appears stormy. idontlikewherethisthreadisheading.jpg

[M.Burroughs]

I didn't think of the Rep wheels hurting the original companies business.... somehow spaced that I suppose. It's a good point for sure. I'd love to see if there are any numbers out there on how well a particular original high end wheel sells after a rep version of it has been put out.

StanceWorks is a great community and I agree that it's definitely a niche style where pay to play is super prevalent, but the Budget Baller thread proves you can "cheap out" on a car and still have a nice ride. Look at how many of Burroughs' cars have had cut springs and no one has said anything about it, yet some guy who has an otherwise pretty damn nice looking car says he's on cut springs and then gets flamed out. It's that kind of thing that just makes me kind of go "Whaaaaat?"

And in no way am I telling people to not have an opinion, it'd just be cool if people could be supportive with it rather than degrading. Like I said, it's all in how you state things.

I will agree that there is a double standard. I'm fine with cut springs and cast wheels. No big deal. This shit is never about money.

The term "pay to play" simply means if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. It doesn't make resorting to knockoffs okay. Its hurting the big boys.

And trust me, it does hurt them. As said, it killed greddy/trust. My family is in the wheel industry, so I know what goes on.

[WhiteStripes]

I'll support any car that looks good, regardless of how much money is in it. $100, $100,000. It's all the same to me. But I won't support your knock-off supporting horse shit.

Well said mang, well said.

I've seen the Rota fail pics, before and they were enough to make me definitely terrified of them. Like I said, I hadn't really taken into consideration the toll reps take on other companies business.

Uhmmm Video Linky No Werk.

It works for me, only YouTube embedding is supported on this site, so you'll have to go to the site to watch it.

I will agree that there is a double standard. I'm fine with cut springs and cast wheels. No big deal. This shit is never about money.

The term "pay to play" simply means if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. It doesn't make resorting to knockoffs okay. Its hurting the big boys.

And trust me, it does hurt them. As said, it killed greddy/trust. My family is in the wheel industry, so I know what goes on.

The whole Double Standard thing goes back to the Hypocrisy I mentioned. I think now that I realize what the financial impact on the Wheel Manufacturer's business portion of it, I'm a lot less supportive of rep wheels.

However, I'll still say that if a car looks good on reps, then I'll change my comment to:

"Damn man, I really like your car, the fitment is spot on but it'd be really killer if you had the original wheels yours were repped from."

As opposed to:

"WTF Reps man? Come on." Like you frequently see.

This whole post wasn't me defending rep wheels at all, even though I guess it kind of came off that way. It's more about I was bummed seeing that dudes perfectly nice ride get trashed on for basically no reason and that I think we should try our absolute best to avoid that kind of thing so we stay much higher above BF.c

[aar0n.]

Mike Burroughs > All. Fantastic posts up there, very well-said good sir

[hypercrush]

cut spring and 400 dollar wheels, ask me if i care about BBS's profit margin.

[M.Burroughs]

cut spring and 400 dollar wheels, ask me if i care about BBS's profit margin.

It's not about their profit margin. It's about supporting the company that created what you want instead of supporting the company that stole it so you could afford it.