They told me E30s were played out

[Fruttolo]

+1 on what he said

I'll for sure steal the duck thing, love little sayings like that

[bwwaaaa]

I don't necessarily have anything constructive to add on the cause or solution, other than that checks out to me. Given the circumstances, I could see it being a chain reaction. Either way, glad to hear you've identified the problem!

[gnmzl]

Hello everyone still on StanceWorks!

Happy to report finally found the bastard making that annoying clatter in the engine

I got laid off just after my last post on this topic, so working on chasing this down was put off naturally.
After squaring stuff out, last Wednesday evening was the night of truth - I was a crusader set on a mission: either find out what's wrong or don't go home!

Whoever says you need to disconnect the water radiator to remove the cam while head/engine is in the car, send them this pic. E30 specific statement of course.



I resorted to trying this, because I failed to find a suitable container to capture the coolant. Thought we had one in the shop, but it went missing.
What I had to do is, besides the obvious removal of clutch fan, fan shroud, cam sprocket etc. was remove the coolant hose clamp located on the frame rail intake side, remove the inner fender (early models have this protruding into the engine bay lower inner fender) and make sure the jeesus bolt doesn't jam up against the radiator fins. I used a plastic bottle cap, tight enough to stay on there while turning the crank and shallow enough to allow for a 22mm wrench to fit onto the bolt.
In my case, the 16" SPAL was in the way, but thankfully upon initial install, I made my life easy with some simple brackets and these handy wing nuts.




These shot portrait better how much room I had to play with




Just enough, so I went ahead and started removing the rocker shafts.
Intake side one was REALLY hard to remove. Like, so hard, I had to take my time and remove it in a total of 4 hours, being careful not to mar the head casting in any way.
Very much worth mentioning is that it was twisted to the side, resulting in the key allowing it to move forward from it's originally intended position in the head. Keep this in mind for later in that post
It was really difficult at times, given the limited space and leverage I had. In the end, it came off and so did the exhaust side shaft (so much easier), followed by the cam itself.

Needless to say, the culprit was found, I'll let the pictures do the talking for me. Below are the cam lobes and the corresponding rocker arm above them.








Sure, all of the rockers have some sort of weird wear pattern. But that number 3 exhaust rocker ...... never seen anything like that wear patter.

So, now the only thing left not inspected are the shafts.
Previously I stated the following on r3v:

...As stated, they looked legit aside of that length issue. Holes and retaining slots were spot on. Well, I guess we'll find out soon enough, really hope this endeavor will help someone in the future.

This statement is wrong.



Pictures don't really show it well, but the holes are not perfectly matched and neither are the rocker positions. True, the misalignment is small enough to not cause any issues.
Granted they stay in place and not rotate or slide about.

Here is my thoughts on what happened, please feel free to correct me if you think I'm daydreaming and have a more serious problem:

Since the intake valves were kissing the pistons ever so slightly, the pressure from that event goes into the rocker pivot point and that is the rocker shaft. The intake shaft get slightly bent (hence the difficult removal) and also rotated and slid forward. Combined with the slightly misaligned oil holes on the shaft, this leads to not enough oil pressure for the spray bar on top of the cam. Oil starvation occurs and all rockers and cam lobes suffer damage. Exhaust rocker on number 3 suffers the most for some reason, assuming my valve lash adjustment was out of spec on this one, and it causes the clatter.

So ... ok, cause of weird rattle found. Now I need to make sure it never happens again.
By chance, a brand new set of IE HD rocker arms is sitting in my closet. It was a deal you can't say no, so I grabbed them about a year ago.
A set of OEM rocker shafts is also in my closet, ordered one as soon as I saw the comments on r3v they were again available.
Now what i think doing is:

- Polish the pads on the new set of rocker arms.
- Talk to a reputable machinist to see if the cam is salvageable.
- If cam is kaputt, buy a new one and have the lobes polished as well, or polish them myself (I'll have a spear cam to train on lol )

I wonder how to make sure I get oil flow to the correct places before that.
How stupid is the idea of removing the timing belt and spark plug and give it a few revs via starter? In theory shouldn't do harm, but it seems to me like a stupid idea and genius at the same time.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Moral of story: walks like a duck, talks like a duck, chances are it is a duck.

[gnmzl]

That is too bad about the rattle. I really hope you do find it... cant stand engines that tick, rattle, or knock. Drives me mad. Can't wait to see what it was when you finally find it.

Yes, I am the same! Even if it's an innocent noise, that doesn't threaten to disintegrate the engine, I still chase it down.
Be sure, I will post when/if I find it and also share what revenge was executed over it.

[Miroteknik]

That is too bad about the rattle. I really hope you do find it... cant stand engines that tick, rattle, or knock. Drives me mad. Can't wait to see what it was when you finally find it.

[gnmzl]

I know it'll be an oil bath, but I'll live with that and clean everything really well after that.
As stated, OEM flywheel bolts were used, they come with something that does the loctite job, cannot recall the name right now. But you are correct - engaging or disengaging the clutch has no influence on the rattle.
The m20 does have a separate rear main seal plate and yes I thought about it - stuck a small camera in there and all bolts were where there should be, no marks on the flywheel either.
Guess I'll have to do a round table with all the m20 gurus I can get in touch with. Which are ... maybe two people.
I **** this car.

[Fruttolo]

Don't start it with no rocker cover or you're gonna wash your car and face in oil LOL
Flywheel bolts could back out if no locktite is used (happened to me on my freshly rebuilt and torqued to spec mk1 trans) but it would rattle considerably less or at least differently when clutch is depressed, and it's independent from oil drips, that's main seal territory. Does your engine have a separate "rear main seal plate" attached with bolts to the block? If it has, maybe those bolts have backed out slightly causing oil drips and touching the flywheel? Still pretty unusual, just flowing thoughts.

[gnmzl]

Yep, you guessed it - still no pictures, since mystery still not solved.

I had exactly one month to chase down this devil, here's a recap of what happened:

First and foremost I did a leakdown test, I had to buy the tool to do it. I did it twice for each cylinder just to be sure. All were below 15% leakage, which I hardly could believe, yet again the engine ran under 5 seconds with the advanced nuke gear. So the test showed all valves are seating good enough.
Next order of business was taking off the oil pan - what a pain with a scraper and a baffle.
Oil looked mint, not even the slightest debri in it, when I filtered it through the finest painter's filter.
No heat discoloration either on rods or crank, no play in any rod or whatever I could reach in there.
There was e tiny little smidge on the scraper, where a rod bolt had touched it ever so lightly. So small, the camera wouldn't catch it. Ok, so off with the scraper. Assembled everything, poured the oil back in and fired it up. Still clacking, right from the start, same noise again temperature independent but RPM dependent, sounds like only one element is hitting another once per revolution.
Next up - discovered a tiny play in the crank sprocket, so small it was unnoticable from above the engine, only when the car was on the lift could we spot it.
From a spare m20 - pristine sprocket with the woodruf key to go with it and the play was gone. Fire it up - same noise.

Listening at it again reveals the following:
From above: more pronounced between cyl 2 and 4
From beneath: more pronounced between cyl 5 and 6, but only if you listen without a screwdriver or similar to the pan. Screwdriver to pan says it's everywhere .....
Removing the alu cover in front of the trans and below the pan makes the sound more pronounced.
Flywheel doesn't have any play, but does have some slight oil drippings, that are spread by the centrifugal force starting from the flywheel bolts.

Now, what I am thinking - since those drippings are on the side, which faces the front of the car, is it possible, that the bolts have backed out and cause this rattle/clatter? I used brand new OEM units and torqued them down to spec, but you never know.
Otherwise the only thing that comes to mind is go back to the head and check every rocker arm, also warm up the engine and fire it up with the head cover off.

Any pointers are welcome.

[Miroteknik]

Disclaimer: No pictures of car, until problems taken care of.

[gnmzl]

It is something to think about, but dbilas claim this is a sports cam, not rally or circuit racing, and hence no additional valve clearance needed. In fact, according to the cam sheet, 1.2mm is the minimum, 2mm is the safe zone. Mine was 2.2mm so .. should be good, but who knows.
I will check it for a piece of mind though.
So the list with stuff to check before making any drastic disassembly moves looks like this:

Check if woodruf key is kaput - either by Fruttolo's suggested method or just take it apart
Check if belt is stretching - by ... magic I suppose, need to think how I can safely do that.

IN OTHER NEWS, SOME PLOT TWIST:

Turns out I didn't retard the engine, but myself.

Using my memory of yesterday eve and the below link as reference, I was a dumbass and advanced the engine instead of retarding it.

https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4706/~/advancing-%2F-retarding-a-camshaft

Attached is an image of what I think I did.

retard.jpg

Guess joke is on me. Hopefully my stupidity will help someone in the future.

Will get back to the car and turn the other way to see if that cures it and take it from there.

[Fruttolo]

Check if the sprocket is lined properly by finding TDC with the old screwdriver-into-plug hole method, if it is and valves contact pistons I'd think you have too tall of cams? Makes no sense tho

Edit: jammed hydro lifters may be a thing?

[gnmzl]

Some copy paste update over from r3v, just to have a documentation of this turd on here as well.

I wouldn't rule out something hitting the scraper, it does make sense. Still the question remains - why all of a sudden? Sure, I can drop the pan and check it out, but need to find the root cause. Prematurely and severely worn rod bearing(s) causing the rod(s) to move around? Why would it fail so early and why does the oil pressure stay high despite? Just questions for me to think on.

Also, there was some new development yesterday eve.

A friend of mine bought a small LED USB camera and called me immediately, he picked it up in my area. We went ahead and stuffed it into the cylinders and sure enough - valve to piston contact.
We took the timing covers off and did find the belt to be a bit loose, but the timing marks still line up perfectly. Adjusted the tensioner, belt is now as tight as it should be - marks still line up perfectly good.
Here comes the weird part. We rotated the nuke to retard the cam about 4 degrees, assembled all the stuff and started the car for about 3 seconds. Noise was LOUDER and now with higher frequency. Returned the nuke gear to zero, started again - a bit better but still there.

Now the question is - why did this engine cover over 3000 kms without making valve to piston contact and start doing it after a hot oil event? Both things seem to not be connected. Is it possible that the belt stretches under any load, even idling and causing the valve-piston contact, but returning to normal when engine is inop? That seems sci-fi to me, but has anyone encountered that?

I really don't want to reassemble the engine without finding the cause of this crap.

Another thing that comes to mind - the woodruf key on the crank sproket potentially could have failed, causing the timing mark to align, but the crank would be on the incorrect position.

What I intend to do next is rotate the cam gear in the opposite direction, start briefly and if it doesn't knock/rattle, I'll check compression numbers and take it from there. Definitely will check the woodruf key on the crank sprocket, but if anyone has some other pointers, would be happy to read them.

Disclaimer: No pictures of car, until problems taken care of.

[gnmzl]

yeah, enough pictures of your confusing red chernobyl machine. lets see the e30

I'd love to, but this car keeps kicking my ass

First some boring stuff about the LCA bushings. Ended up copying my solution from my m10 powered e30. It's basically a welded on and ground down piece of metal snug tightly into a slot made in the bushing itself.
More complicated and time consuming, but better in the long term IMO.




Installed them and now it's a bit better. Passenger side still rubs slightly on left turns but nothing crazy. I'll get it dialed in eventually.
First I need to pinpoint this stupid rattle/knock in the engine I've been chasing for the past month an a half. I don't drive the car anymore because of it, only start it and warm it up once in a while after I change something. Here are the symptoms and what I've done so far:

Symptoms:

Rattle when engine running, rpm dependent, not movement or under load dependent. It is there even if cold started. NOT there when I start the car after 4 or more days of not driving it, but by the time I switch off the lights in the garage, close the door and lock it, get back into the car, the rattle is already there - quiet, but already there. It gets worse when the engine reaches operating temperature. It got progressively worse/louder over the course of about 10 days of driving after the last track day. I can hear it pronounced listening from the top of the engine, less pronounced from the bottom with the car on the lift, but still loud enough.
On that trackday the oil DID get to the 150oC mark briefly, which is about 300oF, but the oil is now changed. Water temp never got over the middle mark.
Oil pressure is 1.3-1.4 bar (18.8 psi - 20.3 psi) when idling on warmed up engine and always has been.

The engine DOES have a windage tray and crank scraper.
No noticeable power loss ( nor gains as well for that matter )

What I've done so far:

Oil change (flushed the oil cooler too) - didn't work
Rocker arm eccentric to valve stem clearance adjustment TWICE - second time was on the engine 10 days not started, did them 0.25 - no change at all
Inspected the oil tube over the rockers - clean, oil passes through, isn't low enough for the rockers to hit it.
Checked as best as I could for rocker arm and eccentric premature wear (everything is brand new) - no visual issues
Verified following twice: timing, bolt on cam sprocket, jeesus bolt and crank sprocket too - nothing out of order
Cam sensor doesn't hit the trigger in place of the distributor.
Cam belt tight enough, not slapping about
Started engine without accessories belt - no change
Unplugged coil connectors one by one while engine running to listen if the noise would change - no change
Pressed gently against the clutch on warmed up engine - didn't feel it through the pedal.
Listening with a screwdriver from the top I can hear it between cyl 2 and cyl 3, when listening from the bottom on the pan - almost everywhere. Not on the block though.
Pulled the plugs, in order of appearance








What I still haven't done yet:

Compression test, but did one before this rattle emerged - average of 210 psi across all cylinders on a warm engine.
Check the drive pulley on the oil drive shaft (it is a brand new unit, the solid one, not stamped steel one)
Pull the pan and check bearing caps.

A short video:

https://vimeo.com/360510585

So, if anyone has any input for me, highly appreciated.
I'm waiting on a tiny camera with an LED to stuff into the cylinders right now. But would like to know if there is anything else I can check before pulling the pan off. Really don't want to do that. I realize asking on a bmw oriented forum is a better bet, but figured someone may have had similar experiences.

Help, please

[Miroteknik]

Miro, you were correct, the rear left wheel is lightest. But with me in it, they light both up at the same time
Could be time for some good pictures and a video.

yeah, enough pictures of your confusing red chernobyl machine. lets see the e30

[gnmzl]

Dude, how is your e30 4000lbs without you in it?

I don't know, as far as my knowledge goes, 1177 kg is about 2600 lbs

Maybe the picture is misleading. Here's one with numbers for each tires. Again, in KGs



Miro, you were correct, the rear left wheel is lightest. But with me in it, they light both up at the same time
Could be time for some good pictures and a video.