What does the stance crowd think about...

[southpaw]

As southpaw said, "If I run over a squirrel in the road, I FEEL its bones cracking."

True.

[Climb_On]

proper stance has nothing to do with wether your on bags or coils, proper stance for both applications takes research, trial and error to get the look you want. I give respect where its due.

Don't get me wrong i love seeing a car laying frame as much as the next guy but i think it takes quite the enthusiast to be willing to learn to live with a slammed car day in and day out.

Bags just makes everything too easy, but not in a good way.
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... i do wish sometimes i was on bags just so i can park in my own steep garage

[rubadub]

Some cars can pull it off, some cant. It depends on what the owner wants to do.

IMO, bags are awesome, but people with coils that are slammed get way more rep.

You obviously don't know about the Mk4 VW scene. If your shit doesn't have fenders sitting on the side wall you're not stanced most of the time.

I'll stick with my coils. I'll just get stiffer springs, set for stiffer settings, and have fun washing tire off my fender.

[Schieldrop]

I've always felt bags are a bit "cheaterish" but can understand why people do it.
Even tho I personally wouldn't do bags unless it's was a big 7-series or something VIPish.
I've always gone with coils on most of my cars. But that's due to the fact that up until this spring I've always had atleast one car that got tracked in anger. And then bags simply won't do.
On the M3 E30 Sport Evo I just sold I had conventional dampers and springs. Tho these were specially fabricated for a hillclimb-racer, so they were looooow.
The problem I have with bags comes down to the handling. And in this respect bags really really suck ass. You can have just as much fun driving a less powerful car as long as the ride is awesome.
So to sum it all up, coils (or conventional or springs and dampers) gives awesome stance and awesome ride. Bags look good if set up right, but handling is generally ruined.

[BreakMyWallet]

you can have a great handling bag setup if youre willing to pay. there are bag setups that do get tracked. though, theyll never be as good as coils but5 there are sets that can keep up for the most part

[Dutchy]

Bags look good if set up right, but handling is generally ruined.

That statement is very very wrong. Bags can handle much better then stock suspension, and even spring/shock setups if they are done right.

Obviously if you run bags without shocks it will handle like crap. Same goes for running lowering springs/coils on stock shocks or any shock not short enough, firm enough for the spring rate.

[Schieldrop]

That statement is very very wrong. Bags can handle much better then stock suspension, and even spring/shock setups if they are done right.

Obviously if you run bags without shocks it will handle like crap. Same goes for running lowering springs/coils on stock shocks or any shock not short enough, firm enough for the spring rate.

You say that bags CAN handle better than stock, and I say that bags are GENERALLY worse than coils. I was not comparing stock to bags or coils. Just coils vs bags. Stock I don't care for in any way.

[Dutchy]

Bag's can compete with coils.

If you were to setup a car to have a ride height which is ideal for the suspension geometry at say 40-50psi or even higher, depending on the bag etc. You would have a very very stiff suspension that is at the optimum height for the suspension to work as it was designed to.

Most slammed cars have tie rod's and control arms pointing to the sky, along with driveshafts doing the same to. That scenario is far from ideal for handling. This is where bags come into play, lets you slam the car whenever your not concerned about handling, and bump up the bag pressure when you want firm suspension that sits at the optimum height for the design of the suspension.

[Schieldrop]

I can see that we will never agree on this, and since I was refering to handling it goes without saying that having the best possible stance was not the point of my statement.
If stance is the only concern than they both work fine, but for the tracking I've done, and did refer to, coils win everytime.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my original post tho...

[Rally]

You say that bags CAN handle better than stock, and I say that bags are GENERALLY worse than coils. I was not comparing stock to bags or coils. Just coils vs bags. Stock I don't care for in any way.

The bagged mustang by ART won against all the coilover'd cars at the track shootout

Yah, of course coilovers can perform better out on the track...but that's if they're being used correctly. A car slammed down with coilovers spun all the way down to get that 'stance' that everyone wants isn't going to handle well either.

I've got bags and my car still handles amazingly well and is still a blast to drive. No driving fun lost here To say that "handling is ruined" is just an exaggeration. They may not be the best of the best out on the track in serious competition, but they still handle well enough to have fun out on the twisty roads.

[Schieldrop]

This is offcourse down to preference, and mine is to avoid bags.
This is a bit like the argument of which is best, awd or rwd.
It's all down to what you as an individual like. But I will say this, almost ALL racecars made around the world does have conventinal spring and damper assembly or coils, and that's that as far as I'm concerned.

As for the real purpose of this thread, the stance issue, I do think bags are perhaps the more sensible way to go. But like so many others have said before me, coils are more hardcore, just 'cos you have to deal with it's downsides all the time

[Tuck&Poke]

the bag is just replacing the function of the spring, not exactly a complicated peice. So long as the pressure in the bag is sufficient to provide enough stiffness, and the ride height is ideal to reduce roll, then there is no reason for there to be any difference in performance between a sprung coilover suspension and a bag setup, except for perhaps the added weight of a tank and compressors, which is what? 70lbs tops?

[BreakMyWallet]

Bag's can compete with coils.

If you were to setup a car to have a ride height which is ideal for the suspension geometry at say 40-50psi or even higher, depending on the bag etc. You would have a very very stiff suspension that is at the optimum height for the suspension to work as it was designed to.

Most slammed cars have tie rod's and control arms pointing to the sky, along with driveshafts doing the same to. That scenario is far from ideal for handling. This is where bags come into play, lets you slam the car whenever your not concerned about handling, and bump up the bag pressure when you want firm suspension that sits at the optimum height for the design of the suspension.

yup

[cheez80]

the bag is just replacing the function of the spring, not exactly a complicated peice. So long as the pressure in the bag is sufficient to provide enough stiffness, and the ride height is ideal to reduce roll, then there is no reason for there to be any difference in performance between a sprung coilover suspension and a bag setup, except for perhaps the added weight of a tank and compressors, which is what? 70lbs tops?

i've read elsewhere that a method to ensure track-ready performance out of bags is all in the setup.

this really applies to cars that can run a bag over coilover setup, using the universal air setup, which slips over your coilover in place of the coilover springs.

you'll have to figure out what spring rate the coilover shocks are valved for (that should be pretty easy). then you can spring dyno the airbags, figure out what the equivalent spring rate is, then toss them on the car. set ride height based on the spring rate/psi ratio you figured out. bam, at the proper ride height, you'll get a ride like coilovers.

[Rally]

you'll have to figure out what spring rate the coilover shocks are valved for (that should be pretty easy). then you can spring dyno the airbags, figure out what the equivalent spring rate is, then toss them on the car. set ride height based on the spring rate/psi ratio you figured out. bam, at the proper ride height, you'll get a ride like coilovers.

You don't even need to spring dyno the bags. Universal Air will supply you with the graph curve of the PSI->Spring Rate equivalence if you ask them for it. At that point you just need to mount them at the proper height for the desired pressure/height, and you're good to go. This is assuming you're using a quality set of coilovers with the bags rather than some cheap ebay coils.

The whole "bags handle like crap" thing was true years ago when people were running air cylinders and the technology hadn't been perfected, but the airbag industry has made leaps and bounds since. It's entirely possible to properly set up a great handling airride.