air ride suspension

[markysss]

so i have a 2012 civic coup and i want to bagg it
i know i need the air struts but as far as the management system.
what do i need or is it better to buy it piece by piece?

[Metzger]

Also looking to bag mine. I got 2013 Sedan.

[Oh Damn, it's Sam]

What are your goals for management? The options are everything from simple manual management with mechanical paddle valves to a full e-Level system with ride height presets and height management, with plenty of options in between. Obviously the price and complexity varies considerably depending upon what you wind up with.

Your options basically go like this, in terms of both price and complexity:

1. Mechanical valves with no management
2. Electric valves with no management (SwitchSpeed and similar)
3. Pressure-based management systems (Autopilot V2 and the like)
4. Height-based management with presets (AccuAir eLevel Rocker Switch)
5. Height-based management with presets and FBSS control (AccuAir eLevel w/ control pad)

There are other management brands out there too, those are just the common options.

I bought most of my gear as a kit from BagRiders, with the exception of my air tank, and it was a good deal. I wound up with a small handful of fittings I'm not going to use, but that's no big deal.

I have eLevel with the rocker switch control on mine, and I think it's fantastic.

[markysss]

Also looking to bag mine. I got 2013 Sedan.

hay im trying to get two other people to get a group buy on air struts from ksport if your interested? they cost $2100 but with a group buy of 3 i could get 25% off and thats a save of $500.

but as far as management systems ive been looking into the auto pilot v2 system but still have no clue how it works and what size air tank and how many compressors or if one would be good enough? and also ive been seeing copper air lines and even aluminum ones .....i just want to have my car slammed and just raise it if i need to but still want to drive stalk if i would want. im just lost with that.

[markysss]

What are your goals for management? The options are everything from simple manual management with mechanical paddle valves to a full e-Level system with ride height presets and height management, with plenty of options in between. Obviously the price and complexity varies considerably depending upon what you wind up with.

Your options basically go like this, in terms of both price and complexity:

1. Mechanical valves with no management
2. Electric valves with no management (SwitchSpeed and similar)
3. Pressure-based management systems (Autopilot V2 and the like)
4. Height-based management with presets (AccuAir eLevel Rocker Switch)
5. Height-based management with presets and FBSS control (AccuAir eLevel w/ control pad)

There are other management brands out there too, those are just the common options.

I bought most of my gear as a kit from BagRiders, with the exception of my air tank, and it was a good deal. I wound up with a small handful of fittings I'm not going to use, but that's no big deal.

I have eLevel with the rocker switch control on mine, and I think it's fantastic.

how long have you had eLevel and has it gave you any problems and what was the overall cost?

[Oh Damn, it's Sam]

but as far as management systems ive been looking into the auto pilot v2 system but still have no clue how it works and what size air tank and how many compressors or if one would be good enough? and also ive been seeing copper air lines and even aluminum ones .....i just want to have my car slammed and just raise it if i need to but still want to drive stalk if i would want. im just lost with that.

V2 is a pressure-based management system, which means it keeps track of the air pressure inside the bags. This is opposed to a height-based management system like e-Level, which uses height sensors mounted in the wheel wells and makes adjustments when the actual level of the car changes. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

The key pros of a pressure-based system are simplicity and cost. No sensors to run means a simpler install, fewer parts, and less expense. The downside is that a pressure-based system does not adequately compensate for changes in load without driver intervention. Here's a little diagram I cooked up of what happens when a passenger gets in the car with a system like V2:



The V2 has a number of presets you can set up to compensate for changes in load, but ultimately, the driver has to make the appropriate adjustments in order to keep the desired ride height.

Height-based management systems use height sensors in the wheel wells to actually measure where the suspension is sitting. Thus, if a passenger gets in or out, the system senses the change in ride height and compensates, without any driver intervention. This is extremely cool, but it comes at the cost of additional complexity and greater expense. For comparison, here is an equivalent chart of how a height-based system handles a change in load:



Other than that, they both do similar things: both systems have presets, both run your compressors for you, etc. It's just a matter of whether you want to run wires for sensors and whether you want to spend the extra few hundred for something like one of the eLevel systems.

I would recommend a minimum of a 2.5 gallon tank that can handle 200 psi, or 4 gallons at 150 psi. If you want more range (that is, more movements of the suspension before the compressor runs), go larger with the tank.

The number of compressors is up to you. More compressors are faster at filling the tank, but they're more expensive, noisier, and use more power. Fewer compressors take more time filling the tank, but they're quieter and cheaper. I have a single Viair 444C on my setup, and it's fine, though were I to do it again, I'd probably go with twin compressors just for the additional speed. A larger, faster compressor like an Air Zenith (or if you're insane, an Oasis) would be a solution too. I would strongly recommend compressors rated for 200 psi, as they give you 1/3 again more range out of the tank than 150 psi compressors for a small additional cost.

Hard lines like copper and aluminum are just for looks. They provide no benefit aside from aesthetics. The vast majority of systems are run exclusively with plastic air line, and they work great. In fact, they probably work better on account of fewer joints and junctions. That said, I've got copper hard lines on the visible parts of my install, and they work just fine, and they're certainly pretty.

how long have you had eLevel and has it gave you any problems and what was the overall cost?

I've had my eLevel system for about a year, but it's only been doing leveling duties for a couple months. Zero problems aside from a broken pressure sensor that was my own fault. I'm extremely pleased with it, and I'm a very difficult customer.

I pieced my system together, but you can get a management / tank / compressor kit from BagRiders that's functionally equivalent to what I've got for about $1700. Obviously that does not include bags nor hard lines, nor flow controls, which you may or may not want.

[markysss]

V2 is a pressure-based management system, which means it keeps track of the air pressure inside the bags. This is opposed to a height-based management system like e-Level, which uses height sensors mounted in the wheel wells and makes adjustments when the actual level of the car changes. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

The key pros of a pressure-based system are simplicity and cost. No sensors to run means a simpler install, fewer parts, and less expense. The downside is that a pressure-based system does not adequately compensate for changes in load without driver intervention. Here's a little diagram I cooked up of what happens when a passenger gets in the car with a system like V2:



The V2 has a number of presets you can set up to compensate for changes in load, but ultimately, the driver has to make the appropriate adjustments in order to keep the desired ride height.

Height-based management systems use height sensors in the wheel wells to actually measure where the suspension is sitting. Thus, if a passenger gets in or out, the system senses the change in ride height and compensates, without any driver intervention. This is extremely cool, but it comes at the cost of additional complexity and greater expense. For comparison, here is an equivalent chart of how a height-based system handles a change in load:



Other than that, they both do similar things: both systems have presets, both run your compressors for you, etc. It's just a matter of whether you want to run wires for sensors and whether you want to spend the extra few hundred for something like one of the eLevel systems.

I would recommend a minimum of a 2.5 gallon tank that can handle 200 psi, or 4 gallons at 150 psi. If you want more range (that is, more movements of the suspension before the compressor runs), go larger with the tank.

The number of compressors is up to you. More compressors are faster at filling the tank, but they're more expensive, noisier, and use more power. Fewer compressors take more time filling the tank, but they're quieter and cheaper. I have a single Viair 444C on my setup, and it's fine, though were I to do it again, I'd probably go with twin compressors just for the additional speed. A larger, faster compressor like an Air Zenith (or if you're insane, an Oasis) would be a solution too. I would strongly recommend compressors rated for 200 psi, as they give you 1/3 again more range out of the tank than 150 psi compressors for a small additional cost.

Hard lines like copper and aluminum are just for looks. They provide no benefit aside from aesthetics. The vast majority of systems are run exclusively with plastic air line, and they work great. In fact, they probably work better on account of fewer joints and junctions. That said, I've got copper hard lines on the visible parts of my install, and they work just fine, and they're certainly pretty.



I've had my eLevel system for about a year, but it's only been doing leveling duties for a couple months. Zero problems aside from a broken pressure sensor that was my own fault. I'm extremely pleased with it, and I'm a very difficult customer.

I pieced my system together, but you can get a management / tank / compressor kit from BagRiders that's functionally equivalent to what I've got for about $1700. Obviously that does not include bags nor hard lines, nor flow controls, which you may or may not want.

thanks for the info man i really appreciate it im considering the elevel now but still deciding. so you think with a four gal tank and two compressors rated at 200 psi would be really good? i mean i really dont need the leveling sensors because its usually just me and maybe my gf in my civic but it wouldnt hurt to have. im gona jump the gun on this soon though, maybe this or next month

[Oh Damn, it's Sam]

A 4-gallon tank with twin 200 psi compressors (I'd run either 444cs or 480cs, though a single Air Zenith OB2 will put out approximately the same amount of air) will be a great setup. You'll have a lot of air, which means lots of movement before your supply is exhausted, and twin comps will recharge the tank relatively quickly.

The use case for my Merc is pretty much exclusively my girl and myself, and I still find height sensors very useful. If, however, you don't think height management is necessary, you might consider whether you need management at all, and whether something like SwitchSpeed or even manual management might work for you. At least to me, I don't see the major difference between pressing a preset button on a V2 controller versus pressing the up button on a SwitchSpeed controller or a manual paddle. Manual switches will also save you a LOT of money on management, and you can always add a management system down the road.

[markysss]

yes I've had many tell me the same about getting manual i just like how it comes with a control with the gauges in it which is a plus whereas the accuair doesn't or it does?

[Oh Damn, it's Sam]

The AccuAir eLevel setups do not come with gauges (though Bag Riders has gauge packs that are pretty affordable), but to be fair, they don't really need gauges, because the system isn't interested in bag pressure. I could see a tank pressure gauge being useful, however, and you could easily add one for pretty cheap.

Bag pressure is not a reliable gauge of ride height, at least if you want a high degree of precision. I'd only rely upon it (or even be interested in it) if I had a system that had no height sensors. There are no gauges in my setup, and frankly, I like it that way.

[pro]

The use case for my Merc is pretty much exclusively my girl and myself, and I still find height sensors very useful. If, however, you don't think height management is necessary, you might consider whether you need management at all, and whether something like SwitchSpeed or even manual management might work for you. At least to me, I don't see the major difference between pressing a preset button on a V2 controller versus pressing the up button on a SwitchSpeed controller or a manual paddle. Manual switches will also save you a LOT of money on management, and you can always add a management system down the road.

I'm curious, because I'm in the same situation. I pretty much only use my M3 for my girlfriend and myself (my backseat is almost unusable, since its so small and my trunk space is limited because its a vert. I never carry anything in it though)

Currently I'm on K-Sport management but wanted to upgrade to Elevel or V2 (or maybe even switchspeed, but would likely go with v2 over switchspeed). Why exactly did you say you still find the height sensors useful?

[Oh Damn, it's Sam]

To me, a couple of things make a system with height sensors stand out.

The first is that I simply don't want to have to think about my ride height. At all. I don't want to look at gauges, I don't want to fuss with a bunch of ride height presets, I don't want to have to guess at where exactly my wheels are sitting in relation to my fenders, none of it. I want my air ride to work the way the factory would have designed it, had Mercedes-Benz's air ride solution circa 1995 not been leaky and terrible.

Let's say I go and pick my girl up from work and we go out to dinner. With just me in the car, the e-Level system measures the ride height of the car, sets every corner perfectly, and off I go. When she arrives, she sits in the car, the e-Level system immediately senses this and makes a slight adjustment, and we're set.

My car has a big fuel tank (23 gallons, so that's about 175 lbs of fuel when full), so my ride height changes pretty severely depending on how much fuel is in the tank. Again, I don't have to have a bunch of presets depending on how much fuel I've got - the e-Level system just measures it, and I don't have to even think about it.

Is it a big deal to press a button on a controller to select another preset that just happens to be set for whatever conditions the car happens to be under? Not really, but it's one more thing to mess with when I'm trying to enjoy driving and spending time with my girl. With my e-Level system, I don't have to even have the control switch out anywhere accessible - the car jumps to ride height on start, and it sits there until I command it otherwise.

Here's another reason: sometimes my girl drives my car. Now, she's wicked sharp, but she's not a car kind of person. Do I want her to have to mess with a controller to drive the car? Not really. Do I want to have to show her all the presets and hope she remembers them? Not really. Do I want to complicate up the driving experience so much that she feels uncomfortable driving my car? Not at all. Guys that are into home theater have a term for this: WAF, or Wife Acceptance Factor. E-Level has a huge WAF, because unless you're wanting to air out or raise clearance, the system simply handles everything for you.

Finally, to end this lengthy dissertation, air pressure is just not a reliable measure of ride height, as my charts above demonstrate. If you know the weight of the car at each corner and how your system behaves, it can be a very close approximation, but the calculus is different for every possible condition the car can be under in terms of load. Whether I've got a full tank or empty, no passengers or four, an empty trunk or a heavy cooler full of drinks back there, e-Level nails my desired ride height every single time.