HAHAHAHA it's about time

[Rally]

From the ACS 'Stop the copy' article

* The German Chamber of Industry and Commerce (DIHK) estimates the economic damage caused by product and brand piracy in Germany to be around 20 - 30 billion Euro per year

* In the estimation of the DIHK, already around 70,000 jobs have been lost

* When they use counterfeits or copies, consumers may be exposing themselves to substantial risks of accident and danger to health

[Oxer]

Yep!^^

[Kielan]

Or they could not and continue to make high quality wheels.

I think I like that option more.

[HKSpeed]

Rays should beat Rota at their own game and start producing a line of low-budget aggressive offset wheels made in some poor country. japanese tire companies do it (Yokohama makes budget tires in Singapore; Sumitomo makes cheap Falkens in Thailand). If Rays made a line of wheels that people knew were parts of Rays (without making it obvious) and sold them for $50 more per wheel than Rotas, I'm sure people would pay alittle more for the name.

the problem is there is no middle ground for wheels. you either drop $2500 on Volks and SSRs or $800 on Rotas. There's no reputable brand thats in the middle. I suppose Enkei and TSW fit that range.

[Rally]

And please, it is a basic 6 spoke wheel design, it isnt like it is the SSR Formula mesh face with the star in the middle.

There are literally an infinite number of possible designs for a 6 spoke wheel. The replicas are DIRECT copies right down to every little detail. It's not like they're just two "similar" designs.

If you go and look at any company that makes a product, the exact same thing is happening. Clothes, food, wheels, farm equiptment etc etc etc etc etc..... it goes on and on.

Just because something happens every day in other venues doesn't make it morally right. I think it's disgusting no matter what venue it's coming from.

[aar0n.]

This may sound snooty but I don't buy store-brand shit and definitely don't buy clothing from Walmart/Target/etc. so I'm okay with saying I don't buy replica shit

[Han]

And there you go, that is exactly what Mackin has done here. You just proved their point while trying to defeat it.. Good job, you're an idiot.

And you are doing what now?

Karl, I think you completely missed the point of the e-mail Mackin sent. They would rather lose the business of said dealers who sell both Mackin products and their replicas than just sit and "take it" that other people are ripping off their products. They're standing up for themselves and it might lose them some business, but they're backing their own company.

From a vendor perspective... Completely agree with them selling both products. They're there to make money and they can make money from both - especially the replicas as of course, they will sell more than the more expensive, but "real" counterpart. They both have their places in this industry, but what Mackin is trying to say is that they do not condone people "ripping off" their hard work to sell at a lower quality and cheaper price just to make a buck.

[Kielan]

I would beat them over the head with Marketing/Advertising on how poorly made and shitty their product is. You either have to take the low road or high road when it comes to pricing your product, pick one and own it.

And there you go, that is exactly what Mackin has done here. You just proved their point while trying to defeat it.. Good job, you're an idiot.

Bitching about it doesnt help anyone...

And you are doing what now?

[KarlSpackler]

Your agrument sounds valid because you left out a key point of this discussion. They are RIPPING OFF a design. They're not making a different wheel that comes in good offsets and is of their own design. They're taking a design that was marketed by a company who paid millions of dollars to design it, stole the design, and are now reproducing it. Thats the key point here. They're stealing a design.

That is business dude. If Mackin isnt smart enough to patent their designs and R&D, then they deserve it. And please, it is a basic 6 spoke wheel design, it isnt like it is the SSR Formula mesh face with the star in the middle. Look ANYWHERE and you will find the exact situation. I hope NONE of you in this thread ever shop at a Walmart, Target, Walgreens, or anyother big box store that has their own "brand". I just went shopping in Walmart and right next to the wheat thins for instance is the walmart brand wheat thins, they cost .50 cents less but taste like low grade dog food so you know what, I buy the real thing from Nabisco because it is better. I have been SOLD on that.

If you go and look at any company that makes a product, the exact same thing is happening. Clothes, food, wheels, farm equiptment etc etc etc etc etc..... it goes on and on. Walmart had a stripped polo that I saw when walking buy that had a small walrus or some shit on it on the breast instead of an eagle or aligator. I am sure Walmart copied Old Navy who copied American Eagle, who copied Abercrombie, who copied Banana Republic, who copied Acoste who copied etc etc etc.............. It is called competition, so what makes Mackin so special?

Imagine you made a fresh ass sticker, and you sell them at 10 bucks and people are buying them and you make them out of good vinyl and you really took your time with the design etc. Then some douche just takes your design, uses shittier vinyl and sells it for 5. There might be a few differences but essentially the same design. Would you not be fucking pissed? You can change the item to almost anything and the logic will be the same, i dont know why wheels are any different.

Wouldnt be pissed, I would beat them over the head with Marketing/Advertising on how poorly made and shitty their product is. You either have to take the low road or high road when it comes to pricing your product, pick one and own it.

Bitching about it doesnt help anyone...

[Oxer]

^^lol.... (reffering to post 33)

I didnt realise that the "real" companies just threw together a design and started making wheels... Ever heard of Research and Development? That isn't cheap, and when the final product is a quality product, You charge appropriately for it!

Its all good, Those 17 y/o with $3000 s13's can buy whatever the fuck they want, but if they never realise and wake up to the bigger picture, then I will never rate their cars highly in my books. But who cares, Its just MY opinion...

Just as I dont care about Your opinions. Everyone has one, Only the ones that make sence to you as an Individual are the ones you agree with.

[Tuck&Poke]

Your agrument sounds valid because you left out a key point of this discussion. They are RIPPING OFF a design. They're not making a different wheel that comes in good offsets and is of their own design. They're taking a design that was marketed by a company who paid millions of dollars to design it, stole the design, and are now reproducing it. Thats the key point here. They're stealing a design.

Imagine you made a fresh ass sticker, and you sell them at 10 bucks and people are buying them and you make them out of good vinyl and you really took your time with the design etc. Then some douche just takes your design, uses shittier vinyl and sells it for 5. There might be a few differences but essentially the same design. Would you not be fucking pissed? You can change the item to almost anything and the logic will be the same, i dont know why wheels are any different.

[KarlSpackler]

Whhaaaa whaaaa whaaaaa........... I hear a bunch of whining going on in here and I have zero sympathy.

I have done nothing but large ticket item sales for the last 5 years. For BOTH of the companies we were by FAR the highest priced product on the market, and I sold the shit out of them.

You know why? Because I got price out of my head and realized there were consumers who I would talk to that no matter how much better quality we proved to be, they were NEVER going to buy from me because I was too expensive. Plain and simple. I suceeded and continue to thrive in a down economy because I know this as a fact and dont let it bother me. Sure in both cases there are "knock offs" that have came along, but in my opinion it is my own company's fault that we are in this situation. If they could have kept up the high quality but kept overhead and thus cost down; then the "knock offs" have no room to breath and grow.

Do you guys really thing some booger eater with a $3,000 S13 would buy a set of $3,000 TE-37s? FUCK NO But they can afford a well fitting set of Rota Grids in Better sizing and that LOOK better, yes I said it, they LOOK BETTER, than the TE37s and cost 60% less. So have they REALLY lost that much? If someone has the cash to spend on the real thing but still buys a knock off; then that is a them problem, not the customer's or knock off brands problem.

In my opinion, the wheel companies (Mackin, Work, BBS, ACS etc) need to do a better job of selling potential customers on why they are better and remember they cannot and will not sell everyone. BUT, if they do a good job of selling Billy 17 year old who may not be able to afford them now, when he is 22 and making more money hopefully he will come back. That is all you can do.

If they cannot sell (figuratively, not actually) their product, they will perish and can blame no one but themselves.

I am also currently an owner of rougly $10,000 worth of wheels and I own a set of Rota Grids that are currently on my car. Because they look good while I am messin around putting together other shit...............

[LewyS14a]

Most company's in the UK now only sell replica's like Rota's and these Varrstoen have just hit our shores . Its a shame but in a way how can the likes of Rays etc compete with them in the uk as a set of rota's cost about the same price as one decent sized Work wheel for instance. I trawl Yahoo japan or save up my cash for my wheels but most people arn't willing to put in the time or effort for good wheels anymore .

Good to see there taking a stand over there before it goes tits up like it has over here !

[Tuck&Poke]

North American Motorsports and we are the North American importers for Oettigner parts also

NAM...bla...

I just installed some FK coils for a dude the other day. Not horrible, you can see where they cut corners as compared to my KW's but they're not something id call flat out shitty.

[525iT_Feen]

exactly.

there area few BIG retailers out there that sell mostly knock off stuff. Its companies like them that are hurting my business. people at waterfest this year looked at me like i had a penis growing from my forehead when i told them how much my wheels were. my average convo was "$500 per wheel, no they arent reps, no they arent bbs." lol

its also tough for me to sell a set of PSS10 or a brand name set of coils when all kids want is a $500 set of FK. thats they way the "scene" is going. people dont respect quality products anymore. I usually dont get involved in these debates about real v fake. but this shit hurts my wallet first hand. your reps (wheels and everything) take food right from my mouth.

I'm not going to get involved with the whole replica wheel debate because people get way to excited and because I respect what you are saying about your business to an extent but c'mon with the FK statement...You've gotta be shitting me.

FK is not raceland, ddm, or some other bull shit. Your talking about a company that has been around for almost 20 years, which is based out of germany, and which is documented as a successful and reputable company. They sell a quality product and if you are selling products to people whose sole purpose is to get low on coils and telling them that Bilsteins or KW are a better product then your lying to their faces. If your clients are buying coils for handling purposes or for strict track use then maybe but A) I doubt that most of them are B) FKs perform fine on the track too.

I've been doing this for a while and have owned/driven on H&R coilovers, Ground Control coilovers, pss9s, FKs, and now KW v3s. NONE rode as good as FKs did low and both my pss9s and V3s needed to be maxed out or be customized to even compare. I'd trade my v3s in a heart beat to be back on a set of FKs.

I don't mean to get worked up but i'm not gonna sit here and watch a good company get shit on along with the garbage ones.