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my questions thread. opinions/help needed

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  • my questions thread. opinions/help needed

    first off, i dont pretend to know alot about bags. i know you have valves to let air in, valves to let air out, compressor to keep the pressure in the tank. i dont understand the controlling system or how it all ties together. ive been reading online the last 2 days and all i can find is the very basic description i just gave you. im trying to find all the parts i need for the system, i figure when i have them here i can visualize it all and grasp the concept of each part and what it does for and to the system.

    i havnt bought anything yet and probably wont soon. but i do have some questions

    what are good companys for compressors ? viair seems to be all over the place when i look for them online. are they good ? what size would be good for an e30 ? i dont want it to take a long time to fill the tank but it doesnt have to be extremely quick.

    also, where is a good place to buy a good tank with the amount of ports id need to line up the bag system on this car ?

    like i said .. noob to air ride, any help/advice/opinions are good. i will try to ask as many questions as i can about a single aspect/part before moving on to others.

  • #2
    Why bags?

    Flickr

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Stephen View Post
      Why bags?
      because with my old setup i couldnt get into most places including my own driveway. my lip would scrape the street and my pan would drag the sidewalk which doesnt sound bad till you start seeing the marks it leaves on my driveway and the damage it did to my lip. i could only enter 1 gas station and it was in the town over. my new GC setup will be lower and as much as i like static drop .. its impractical.

      Comment


      • #4
        First off, I received your email and have been swamped here with finishing up the paperwork for our last group buy. I didn't ignore you!


        After numerous emails and private messages regarding “the basics of air ride”, Open Road Tuning decided to construct an “Air Ride 101” informational fact sheet. This way, we can touch upon all the basics and should any specific questions arise, we can handle them on a case-by-case basis.

        Q: Everyone talks about bags over coils versus Bagyard struts, what is the difference?

        A: A bag over coil setup utilizes your existing coilovers and simply puts a bag in place of the coil spring. Air bags are also known as “air springs” – thus you just replace the spring in your coilover setup with the aerosport air bag. A one-piece strut like Bagyard uses a sealed strut design where the bag and the strut are essentially one unit. Bagyard struts are shortened in house and then assembled by crimping the bag to the bag plate and then placing the bag on the strut.

        Q: What makes a one-piece modular design better than bags over coils?

        A: There are several drawbacks to a bag over coil setup. The first drawback of bag over coils is that most times when you have to position the bag very low on the coilover threads. This is a negative because it places the bag close to the tire but it also does not allow the car to be raised very much. For example, when you have your bag over coil setup laying frame, you may get 1-3” of lift – if that. The other drawback the bag over coil setup is the cruising pressure. With a very limited range of motion with the position of the bag being very low, the cruising pressure is increased. However, the best thing about bags over coils is that a bag over coil setup can be had for a mere $14-1800! A one-piece strut design goes lower because the actual strut is shorter than any coilover body. Another point that is often overlooked is that the Bagyard struts come valved for an air spring and not a conventional spring. Thus, the ride is going to be better because you’re not using a shock that is valved for a coilover spring rate.

        Q: What should I buy, 4 valves or 8 valves?

        A: It’s all over vortex that you’re going to need eight valves to make the best setup. This couldn’t be further from the truth. After spending a fair amount of time with Bagyard and asking them about their choice for air management, they told me four valves! I asked why not eight? Everyone on vortex says that you need eight valves to compensate for the body roll of the car through a turn. Eddy @ Bagyard told me that you need eight valves to compensate for the body roll that comes with using a low quality strut. He also said that Bagyards are properly valved for each vehicle and that regardless of how many valves you’re using you should have very minimal body roll if the pressure is dialed in properly. That being said, if you’re looking to have the car “leaning” at a show, then you’ll need eight valves without a doubt. If you’re looking to have just control of the front and rear, you can get away with four valves. The one perk of eight valves is that if you’re using an auto-leveling system such as the Accuair, you will need independent corner control and in this case, it’s a plus. The other perk of having eight valves is individual wheel control should you be on uneven pavement or need to balance out weight within the vehicle.

        Q: Air ride and High Horsepower?

        A: YES! We have numerous cars in Austria that have high horsepower and air ride! For example, we have one customer in Austria that has over 400AWHP and has taken his car to a drag strip and run low 12’s in the quarter. He’s never had a single problem with the power and the air ride. It’s entirely possible! Also, it’s important to keep in mind that Bagyard has track tested and autobahn tested their air suspension components. Bagyard also builds the Cargraphic Air Lift suspension and they have been tested on GT3’s and Audi R8’s.

        In regards to the questions you asked, I'm going to try to answer them the best I can! So here goes!


        Each air ride system is divided into two pieces... Air bags/Air Struts and Management. Just like building a motor, you need something to 'control' your air ride and this is management...duh, right? Well management comes in MANY configurations, you'd actually be quite surprised.

        I'll just quickly define the basics so that we can have them here on the forum for everyone to use.

        Pump/Compressor - Fills the air tank
        Tank - houses the air
        Valves - regulates pressure inside the bags. commonly referred to as "fills" and "dumps"
        Pressure switch - tells the compressors when to turn on and when to shut off
        Switch Box/Switches - opens/closes the valves to move the pressure in and out of the bags, respectively.
        Gauges - shows the pressure inside the bags
        Line/Tube - moves the air from the valves into the bags.
        NPT - national pipe thread
        PTC - push to connect
        DOT Approved - Dept. of Transportation approved (look for this seal of approval, it signifies the good stuff)

        There are several different ways to get the air into the bags. Sometimes people don't run electric valves, they just run paddle valves or schrader valves. Paddle valves are a simple "manual" valve that is just opened and closed by hand to fill and dump the air in the bags. A schrader valve is much like a "tire fill" valve and it would allow you to connect to a tire filling station and fill your air bags. Yes, it's entirely possible to do this! Most systems today use what's called fast valves which are typically just called valves. Typically people run 4 or 8 valves in their setup. If you run 4 valves, it means that you will have one fill valve for the front two bags and one fill valve for the rear two bags. As well as one dump valve for both front & rear. When you run an 8 valve setup, you have one fill and one dump PER CORNER. This allows Front/Back/Side/Side movement of your vehicle. When you just run a 4 valve setup its commonly called a FB or Front/Back setup as this is the only range of motion available with this number of valves.

        Compressors...

        There's a reason why VIAIR is such a big name in the compressor industry. They're good, they're probably one of the best, if not the best. However, as of late, the new Air Zenith OB2 compressors are very very nice and fill very very quickly. Although they perform well, they also draw more amps. If I recall correctly ONE AZ OB2 draws 35amps whereas TWO 480's draws around 38.4 amps. Just a little tip...VIAIR dual packs are a good deal and running two compressors is just a nice way to cover your ass should something happen - for example a compressor decides to die on the way home from a show.

        Tanks! Typically you want to have between 5-8 ports on a tank. However, it all depends on what you're planning on doing with your system. If you plan to run 2 compressors, 8 valves, pressure switch, tank gauge, schrader valve, air horns, etc. You're going to want more ports, obviously. Ideally on an 8 valve system you want to have 2 ports for your compressors going into the tank, 2 ports for the air coming out of the tank, and 1 port for the pressure switch. If you don't use all the ports, you can always plug them and use them later, or never! Most cars like BMW's, VW's, Audi's, etc. run a 5 gallon tank. 5 gallons is a decent amount of air to play with and to have on hand should. Just remember, the more space you have, the longer the fill time. And the more often you run your pumps the faster they wear out!

        Switch Boxes vs. Digital Controls.

        Moving that air from the tank to the bag! In order to move the air from the tank through the valves and into the bag you're going to need a switch of some sort. These switches open and close the valves to move air into or out of the bag. The most common form of switches is a switch box and these can be purchased in various shapes, colors and actually number of switches. The most simple switch box would just be 5 switches. One for each corner and one in the middle - the middle switch is the "all down" or "pancake" switch. The next step up would be a 7 switch which would give you: one for each corner, one for the front two bags, one for the rear two bags and one pancake switch. The next step up is a 9 switch box and that gives you: one for each corner, one for the front two, one for the rear two, pancake and one the right side and one for the left side.

        Digital controls! As I said before, there are a lot of options out there for controllers and management. Something like the easy street autopilot would be a step up (to some) from an analog setup (switch box). The easy street autopilot is a pressure based ride height system that has 3 preset ride heights as well as the ability to control each corner individually. The ES autopilot is a very nice cost effective solution to a digital controller. Stepping up from that you have something like the ride pro e3 from Air Ride Technologies. This is another pressure based system with a little more in terms of a screen/control, etc. This system is also a step up in price. The ride pro e3 can be upgraded to the level pro. The level pro system uses height sensors and pressure sensors to monitor your air ride system. The advantage to a height based system is that the system can compensate for cross loading aka additional weight. When the height sensor is moved, it tells the ECU "fill x bag to compensate for additional weight at y position". Thus, you will have a more accurate ride at all times. My favorite system is the Accuair E-Level system. The Accuair E-Level is a ride height sensor based control system that uses some of the best technology I've ever seen (in terms of a management setup). It uses height sensors paired with possibly the coolest controller I've ever seen. The Accuair has some really great features that push it above other competing systems. Features such as THREE presets AND a pancake button, the ability to turn off the auto ride height and use the system as if it had a switch box and my favorite feature...if you're on that long road trip and you're afraid your friend or girlfriend is going to sit on your controller and dump the bags while you're cruising along, just unplug the controller. Unplugging the controller locks the system at the ride height which you've selected. So in theory, you could set your ride height, unplug the controller and let the system maintain the preset height which you've selected. The Accuair setup is probably one of, if not, the most intelligent ride height setups out there.

        Let me know if you have any other questions!
        I used to be famous.

        somewhere between I want it and I got it.

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        • #5
          no problem. that was very helpful. better then anything i found on the web. im going to start researching more on individual parts. i will post more questions as they come to me

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          • #6
            Glad to help! If you have any specific questions, just let me know!
            I used to be famous.

            somewhere between I want it and I got it.

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            • #7
              Awesome info!
              http://www.jmbat.com/bbsquad/forum2/index.php

              DOODS! Real Friends > Car Clubs

              http://autoimportcraze.com/

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              • #8
                That was a grantastic write up!!!
                '89 civic hatch 15x8 sportmaxx 501 +15 offset stolen and recovered without my wheels SOLD
                '93 civic sedan tbd
                '92 civic sedan cheviot reverse mesh

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                • #9
                  thanks guys! let me know if I can answer any other questions
                  I used to be famous.

                  somewhere between I want it and I got it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have done tons of research over the past 2years on air ride and Andrew definately knows his stuff. I am familiar with him from another forum and he has always answered my questions quickly and thourghly.

                    FWIW he is very competitive on pricing also.

                    Ryan

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                    • #11
                      Dam very good write up. Depending on funds the accuair system including the manifold is awesome. I installed airride on my xb back in November and keep getting different leaks from all the fittings needed to run 8 valves and 2 gauges. With the manifold, it will eliminate a ton of those fittings and will make for a much cleaner setup.

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                      • #12
                        thanks for the good words 2.slowT, let me know if you have any other questions!

                        omarsxb, the accuair manifold is great with the built in PTC fittings. sure, the cost of the manifold is a little more than your typical valve setup but when you consider that the manifold is only 5" L x 3" w by about 4" tall and it has all the PTC fittings built in, it's totally worth it.
                        I used to be famous.

                        somewhere between I want it and I got it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Andrew what would you reccomend getting ditigal gauges? Ive been looking at getting the dakota digital air gauge, probably the odyssey 2. But would i be better off getting a digital management system? Im currently running a 5 switch box, one gauge, and a 4way manifold, but it wouldnt be much more to get the digital management right? which would you recommend?
                          Flickr WaterCooled Militia EuroPlush

                          iggy@canibeat.com

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                          • #14
                            it really depends on what you're looking at doing, iggy. from one standpoint the addition of digital gauges is certainly lighter on the wallet. however, moving up to something like the autopilot isn't a heck of a lot more when you consider everything. the odyssey 2 is a great gauge setup and dakota digital stuff is really top notch in terms of quality, performance and customer service. it all comes down to available funds and what you want out of your system. if you're happy with a switch box then just get the odyssey 2. if you're looking for one touch ride height and digital gauges, get the autopilot kit. either way, i'm more than happy to help you out when you're ready to purchase!
                            I used to be famous.

                            somewhere between I want it and I got it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by andrew@openroad View Post
                              it really depends on what you're looking at doing, iggy. from one standpoint the addition of digital gauges is certainly lighter on the wallet. however, moving up to something like the autopilot isn't a heck of a lot more when you consider everything. the odyssey 2 is a great gauge setup and dakota digital stuff is really top notch in terms of quality, performance and customer service. it all comes down to available funds and what you want out of your system. if you're happy with a switch box then just get the odyssey 2. if you're looking for one touch ride height and digital gauges, get the autopilot kit. either way, i'm more than happy to help you out when you're ready to purchase!
                              Andrew, do you sell the Accuair e-level w/valves ? could you email me pricing on that. thanks

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